User

07.11.2007 20:47:02

I've been extremely happy with Remote Buddy and would like to register, but I have one pretty big issue. As strange as it sounds, it seems Remote Buddy 1.7.4 causes packet loss on the WLAN of my PowerBook G4. This occurs even if I'm not connected to my laptop with any remotes.

The effect is pretty bad - surfing becomes next to impossible. I pinged a site with 1024 byte packages and the packet loss was as high as 77%. It recovered to 0% as soon as I closed Remote Buddy. The signal level stayed at over 80% the whole time.

Any ideas what could cause this? 

User

08.11.2007 00:08:02

I can't see how Remote Buddy could cause any packet loss. Just how and 
why should it do that?

- Remote Buddy doesn't change any network settings 
- Remote Buddy uses Apple's official CFNetwork high-level APIs for the 
AJAX Remote and stays completely away from any low-level network stuff 
- Remote Buddy sure enough leaves your WLAN and WLAN drivers alone.

The only thing that I could think of is purely physical: if you are 
using a Bluetooth remote control and WLAN at the same time, the 
signals of both may interfere if they should use related/the same 
radio frequencies. But that's nothing Remote Buddy or any other 
software could have, has or will have any influence on. You may want 
to try to turn Bluetooth off and see if it helps.

It could also be a WLAN driver issue. Apple's discussions boards and 
Mac forums are full of them. And many of them are both long standing 
and unfixed.

Best regards, 
Felix 

User

08.11.2007 20:45:34

You are correct. Disabling bluetooth did indeed solve the problems with packet loss. It is interesting how the problems continued even after I had turned the Wiimote off. Now the only problem that remains is that I can't really use the application with my Wiimote, if the bluetooth is disabled. :I 

User

10.11.2007 02:11:05

It's my understanding that you can instruct many WLAN base stations on 
which frequency band (measured in MHz/GHz) they should use. You may 
want to check the respective settings of your base station and play 
with them a bit. This may well help.

Your Bluetooth hardware will send RF signals regardless of the 
connection to a remote existing or not. Only this way can it find 
remote controls you want to pair and - during an existing connection - 
make sure the connection is still valid.

Best regards, 
Felix 

User

17.11.2007 05:02:13

I had the same issue mhalttu had. I was using Remote Buddy with a Wii remote and both Safari and Firefox were unable to load web pages. The moment that I quit Remote Buddy the pages began to load again.

Even if I don't connect a Wii remote and just have Remote Buddy open, the issue occurs. I did not notice the issue until installing Remote Buddy v1.8, but I may not have made the connection before.

I'm using Mac OS X Leopard 10.5.1 and Remote Buddy v1.8. 

User

20.11.2007 00:54:01

As I wrote before this is can't be a software problem with Remote 
Buddy. With absolutely no code in Remote Buddy that could cause any 
packet loss, it really can't cause it. Remote Buddy doesn't change 
your network settings, nor does it do anything with your network 
adapter(s) - including AirPort at all. Even if you enable AJAX Remote, 
all it will do is do a default listen() on a standard TCP/IP socket - 
something every server has to do and fully standards compliant, not to 
mention it's many, many abstraction layers away from any piece of 
hardware.

It must be either a problem in Apple's drivers or - and I believe this 
to be more likely - a physical interference between Bluetooth and 
WLAN. Even if you don't have a remote control paired / connected, 
Bluetooth will still send packages in an attempt to find and connect 
to known devices. If it would not do this, you couldn't just press 1 + 
2 together to pair but you had to go through the pairing process 
manually each and every time you want to use the remote control.

I can't do more for you than advise you to try setting up your WLAN to 
use a different frequency or disable Bluetooth while you want to use 
WLAN.

You may also want to check this thread on Apple Discussions where 
users report about the same problem:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=5245607�

For them, changing the base station brand or disabling Bluetooth did 
the job.

Best regards, 
Felix 

User

30.11.2007 18:05:48

It would appear that the issue only occurs while the Bluetooth is actively seeking remotes to synchronize. This issue doesn't appear to happen in the OS because you have to manually begin the pairing process from the computer. During this time AirPort appears to be unable to communicate, however after that it works fine because it is no longer actively seeking new remotes. This is the reason that using a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse does not present the same problem as using Remote Buddy. Remote Buddy is ALWAYS looking for new devices, rather than only when you tell it to do so. You can turn this feature off, but then you cannot pair your device at all.

That being said, would it be possible to add a feature to Remote Buddy that causes it to look for a remote when it first comes on for a minute or two, and then require a key press, or a menu selection to re-trigger the search process? This should eliminate the interference once pairing has completed, and would only minimally increase the difficulty of connecting a new remote.

As for changing wireless settings, I have been unable, as of yet, to find any settings that allow AirPort and Remote Buddy to co-exist, therefore the only solution I can see, once a remote is paired or shortly after startup, is for Remote Buddy to stop looking. 

User

04.12.2007 12:51:02

Thanks for the input.

According to Wikipedia:

Bluetooth operates in the license-free ISM band at 2.4-2.4835 GHz.

WLAN operates in 2,412 - 2,484 GHz (channel 1 - 14) and 5,170-5,805 
GHz (channel 34-161), whereas the use of the latter band, that does 
not overlap with Bluetooth. doesn't seem to be allowed worldwide.

You'll see that Bluetooth and WLAN pretty much use the exactly same 
bands. You can find a nice table of which channel uses which frequency 
at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLAN - the English version sadly lacks 
that overview.

That said, the only way to find a remote control at any time is to 
continously look for those that are known. It's a limitation of the 
technology, not Remote Buddy.

You can turn the "Bluetooth Receiver" on and off in Remote Buddy's 
menu and it's preferences' Hardware pane.

The ideas you provide are interesting and I'll definately look into 
them. The problem - as always - is that one size never fits all ..

Best regards, 
Felix 

User

19.12.2007 03:46:32

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I'm aware of the fact that Bluetooth and Wi-Fi use the same frequency. However, it is widely accepted that the two do not interfere with each other in any noticeable fashion. This is not true of cordless phones or microwaves (which also operate in the 2.4 GHz range), which can cause problems with Wi-Fi.

This is not a matter of interference. This appears to be an issue with the Bluetooth drivers in MacOS X "shutting down" Wi-Fi access while Bluetooth is actively seeking Bluetooth devices. During the passive scan that OS X performs to check for already paired devices, this is not an issue. However, the first time a device is paired, OS X will search far more diligently for devices and disable Wi-Fi during the process.

RemoteBuddy, on the other hand, ALWAYS shuts down Wi-Fi because it is constantly searching for new devices. You are correct that the only way to find new devices is to always look for remote controls at all times. One drawback to this is that Wi-Fi networking is effectively eliminated during this process.

What I propose is this:

In future updates to RemoteBuddy, add a feature that either disables "active Bluetooth searching" after a set period of time, or is toggled on and off with a keystroke. Obviously, I can disable the Remote searching at any time, but once I do that, the remotes that are already connected are immediately disconnected.

Therefore, if I want to use RemoteBuddy and a Wii remote to say, browse the Internet, I won't be able to do so over Wi-Fi as the two cannot coexist at the same time in the current implementation of Bluetooth handling that RemoteBuddy is doing.

You are correct that one size never fits all. I love this program and I use it all the time for controlling music and video, but I would love to be able to use it for far more than that one day. I hope that some of these features could one day make their way into RemoteBuddy, even if only as options and not defaults. 

User

19.12.2007 23:53:15

This does NOT happen with an older version of Remote Buddy. I have a new MacBook Pro. I installed Remote Buddy, don't know the version, the .dmg was saved on my NAS. I used this for a week trouble free. I bought a new, faster internal drive. Re-installed everything from scratch. This time, I downloaded the latest as of today Remote Buddy. My network connection was essentially killed. Since my iTunes library is on my NAS, being accessed via Airport in the MBP, the whole thing came to a crawl. I couldn't even mount the NAS without iTunes trying to get at it. I quit Remote Buddy, everything was fine.

The only thing that changed was the version of Remote Buddy. I must use a Bluetooth apple mighty mouse, I can't get by with the trackpad. I have a bluetooth keyboard too, nearby, but don't use it all the time.

I'm using the Apple remote as my only remote.

Simply saying "don't use bluetooth" is really pretty lame. I understand R.B. uses all the correct code, etc., I'm no programmer, but I think something else is going on with R.B. and bluetooth and wireless networking.

I really, really wanted to try Ajax remote thing for my iPhone too.

I guess there is no choice but to just not use Remote Buddy for now, right? No settings to tweak or anything?

My network, for wireless, uses just a AirportExpress, hard wired to a regular Fast Ethernet system. 

User

20.12.2007 00:24:53

Also, I just shut off Bluetooth completely, and it made no difference at all. It's this simple as I see it. I can't use my wireless network when Remote Buddy is on. I can when I quit it.

For kicks, I installed Remote Buddy on my Mac Pro tower, which doesn't use wireless at all. It's hardwired right into my network, which is also not wireless.

Same thing! I can mount the NAS drive for example, but the contents/window doesn't show up for a LONG time, like 2 minutes. 
Once it finishes mounting, it is very, very sluggish. Almost unuseable.

So, for me at least, this is not:

1. a bluetooth issue 
2. a wireless/airport issue

this is a conflict of some kind between Remote Buddy and ethernet networking. Maybe the Kernel thing is bad? I don't know.

I think this is a real issue though.

I'd sure like an older R.B. version to check this with. 

User

20.12.2007 00:25:16

 
 
That's not what I meant to say. What I meant to say is "try turning 
off Bluetooth [support in Remote Buddy]". You can do this in 
Preferences > Hardware > Bluetooth Receiver > .. - or temporarily just 
via Remote Buddy's pull down menu.

 
It sure is easy to point fingers at Remote Buddy, but it doesn't 
change the matter of fact that this is a problem in Apple's drivers, 
not Remote Buddy.

Apple's Bluetooth Mouse and Keyboard drivers run as kernel extensions 
and thus *have* to use a *private*, kernel-level Apple API. Bluetooth 
userspace APIs are *NOT* available to kernel extensions. Everybody 
else, including Remote Buddy, has to use the only publicly documented, 
userspace Bluetooth APIs of OS X. If there's a problem exclusive to 
the userspace APIs, chances are zero that you'll notice them with 
Apple's mouse and keyboard as they don't use them at all, but 100% 
that you'll notice them when using software that uses the only API for 
Bluetooth Apple provides to developers.

Best regards, 
Felix Schwarz 

User

20.12.2007 00:44:16

Well, I did manage to find an older version, from January of '07. It was 1.0 preview 10b2 something.

Works fine. NAS mounts 100% the same as without R.B. Bluetooth, everything is totally fine.

I have to conclude it's a 1.8 issue. I thought maybe it was because my MacBook Pro has the absolute latest as of today updates, but my Mac Pro is stuck at 10.4.10, and acts the same.

One last request, can someone, somehow post or send 1.7.4? 

User

20.12.2007 04:29:04

 
 
As I've stated already, this disconnects any Bluetooth remote from your computer, which doesn't really solve the issue. I might as well just turn Remote Buddy off, because it will achieve the same effect.

 
I'm not pointing fingers at Remote Buddy as the only problem. As I also stated before, the same issue occurs with Apple's Bluetooth Setup Assistant when it is actively looking for new devices. However, once Bluetooth Setup Assistant FINDS those devices, it stops looking and network transmission resumes properly.

Remote Buddy does NOT do this, because it is ALWAYS looking for new devices. Something that can easily be fixed by creating a timer (adjustable by the user, if necessary) that tells Remote Buddy to stop looking for new devices after so many minutes unless a key-combination or menu selection is used to re-trigger active searching.

 
Again, this is a misunderstanding of the issue we're describing and a deflection back toward a problem with the OS. If this were an issue that affected all Bluetooth software programs, it would be front page tech news, by now. I mean, DarwiinRemote works perfectly fine with multiple Nintendo Wii remotes, so it can clearly be done.

I'm not upset in any way by what Remote Buddy does well, but there is clearly an issue with the latest version if JohnV's experiences can tell us anything. Perhaps instead of playing the blame game, we could work together as developers and end users to find and resolve the issue so that we end users feel comfortable recommending this software to other users, as I have done in the past.

User

20.12.2007 04:30:54

Now that you mention it, I did not notice this issue until I installed 1.8, but since I only used the previous version for about a day or two, I may not have tried to use it for anything other than a video remote during that time. 

User

20.12.2007 19:25:02

Version 1.0 Preview X did only one BT inquiry at startup. Once that BT 
inquiry did time out, it did not place new inquiries and you could not 
pair a Bluetooth remote after that. From what I remember of the 
Darwiin code, it uses that very same scheme.

As requested by many users, later versions and including v1.1, v1.7, 
v1.8, .. continously searches for known BT remotes. Having to 
continously search for its Bluetooth devices is something other apps 
targeting BT devices made specifically for computers don't have to do. 
The Wii Remote and the Sony BD Remote were not designed as normal 
computer input devices. If they shall be made work with a Mac, they 
have to be actively searched for.

As Bluetooth and WLAN do not have anything to do with one another on a 
driver or protocol level and Remote Buddy's use of TCP/IP and 
IOBluetooth is several layers and the kernel/userspace barrier away 
from the actual drivers (and one another), plus the Bluetooth APIs are 
very simple and straightforward (no voodoo or magic flags involved or 
available here at all), I don't see how Remote Buddy could be the 
cause of any WLAN/BT interferences. As a matter of fact, only this one 
way is available to communicate with Bluetooth devices on OS X.

Sure, Remote Buddy uses the official Bluetooth APIs, and sure, if 
there's a problem with the Bluetooth drivers when doing connects and 
inquiries (== searches) to Bluetooth devices, it'll trigger these 
problems. But they are not rooted in or within the scope of influence 
of Remote Buddy's use of the Bluetooth stack. And Remote Buddy's use 
of the Bluetooth stack in turn is the only thing that I have control 
over.

If there was a problem *I* could fix, I'd be more than happy to do it, 
even if that would mean that I have to go to great lengths to achieve 
the goal. For the built-in Apple IR receiver I've already gone very 
far multiple times in reaction to changes on Apple's side, but it was 
and is doable, as it can all be done with the use of stable, supported 
standard APIs.

The Bluetooth stack of OS X is different. Unless I'd try to replace 
the entire Bluetooth stack (with the majority of it being completely 
undocumented), I have no chance to work around or fix problems in it. 
It's not modular and the - decisive - kernel part is completely 
undocumented.

If I say that the problem can only be located within Apple's drivers 
or a physical problem, I don't say this because I'm unwilling to 
acknowledge or fix a problem, but because all I know about the problem 
does - by employing nothing but logic and excluding possibilities one 
by one - only permit this conclusion.

My research on the problem did also show that it is around for even 
longer than Remote Buddy is. Here's this finding from Apple Discussions:

-- quote -- 
After messing around for many hours (actually days) I figured out that 
I have the itermittent network problem (wireless) when I enable 
bluetooth, if I turn bluetooth off the network works fine (with any 
combination of both Apple and Logitech keyboards and Mouse). I just 
got off the phone with tech support, they suggested I take the unit 
back for service because I probably have a failing bluetooth module. 
Before doing that I decided to move the mini to the same room as the 
access point and turn bluetooth on, absolutely no problems at all. I'm 
not taking it in for repair just yet. I think it's a performance issue 
and not a component failure.

I also have an iBook and it doesn't have any wireless problems at all 
even with bluetooth running 
-- quote --

It's dated 6th March 2006. That's a couple of months before even the 
first line of Remote Buddy's code saw the light of day. There's also 
this - in reply to above posting:

-- quote -- 
I saw on an Intel iMac thread that someone had been told by Apple tech 
support that Bluetooth and Airport would interfere with each other on 
channel 6. I had been having problems with my Bluetooth mouse & 
Airport bandwidth on my Mac mini Core Duo, and the channel selection 
was set to Automatic.

[..]

Yep, I have this too. My duo is connected via 2 airport expresses in 
WDS mode. I also have a bluetooth keyboard and mouse

Hooked up my new duo and observed horrible wireless performance 
(intermittent connectivity and throughput). Powerbook in same location 
operates without issue using same bluetooth keyboard/mouse. Was on 
channel 1 with intermittent network performance. Went to channel 11, 
and network intermitentcy went away; however, network throughput is 
not as high as Powerbook. 
-- quote --

Source of all quotes: 
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=387407

This issue has also been in the news already (=> f.ex. http://www.macobserver.com/article/2006/03/15.15.shtml 
), but like other issues that exist to date (=> i.e. the numerous 
AirPort issues), the news sites forget about it after an initial spike 
of attention (they don't want to bore their readers with "no news on 
this topic" or "issue still unfixed - nothing to see here, really" 
articles, I guess).

I guess I'll implement an option to limit the time after launch within 
which Remote Buddy seeks for Bluetooth remotes, but that's really as 
much as I can do.

This post is my last one on this forum thread. All I can do from this 
point on is to repeat myself.

Best regards, 
Felix Schwarz 

User

20.12.2007 19:54:57

I've read all this talk about bluetooth and all that. Bottom line, since my Mac Pro acts the same way with no bluetooth even installed, I strongly believe it is simply something wrong with Remote Buddy in it's current state. The old preview version works 100% fine, the new one does not. I just am not comfortable accepting that it's all Apple's fault somehow.

I tested this on 4 totally different macs I have (new 17" macbook pro, original black macbook, G4 macmini, and dual 2.66 Mac Pro). The minute Remote Buddy was activated, my network connection went down the tubes, wireless, wired, doesn't matter, bluetooth on, off, doesn't matter.

For now, I'm just using the old version, and bummed because I can't do the Ajax Remote part.

Fingers crossed that sometime in months to come something will be changed somewhere that gets it back to working.

Good luck...if I figure out any other elements as I keep testing my macs with various things, I'll post here for informational purposes.